Charlie Lim is simply put, a world class musician. Many who've worked with him / been around him in a musical setting would attest to learning so much about music and what it should be and mean simply by being around him and either being part of or observing his process.
Playing in his longstanding band - The Mothership, definitely counts as one of the highlights of my musical life. He's also equally adept with music that doesn't require the services of the band, and produces and records a lot of parts completely by himself for a lot of his music.
Fresh Music from Charlie and Linying - Definitely worth checking out
More than a few of my students in lessons have asked me permutations of the following questions :
"What's it like playing for Charlie?"
"How does someone get to play with Charlie?"
"If I wanted to be good enough to play with Charlie, what should I do?"
I figured the best thing to do would be to simply ask him.
Get ready to learn what it takes to back one of the greats.
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Wen : So for those who are looking to get the gig with Charlie Lim, how would you define what you look for when looking to fill the drum seat in your band?
Charlie : Haha at this point in our lives? I think availability 😅
But I mean, not just saying yes to the gig...but being able to make time and put in the work to get the job done. If you're a session player, I think being obsessive about execution and attention to detail is critical...I can give a general direction or certain preferences when we're in rehearsal trying to recreate or interpret a recorded song for live performance, but I feel like I'm also limited in my own vocabulary when articulating how I arrived at a specific decision during the songwriting process.
The musician has to dive even deeper on like a molecular level to try and reverse engineer the part in order to offer his or her own solutions when interpreting it live. There's a fair bit of wiggle room for self-expression when playing my stuff, but it's also pointless if you don't know the song inside out...it's not just learning a part in isolation, but how it interacts with the rest of the arrangement and having an understanding of why it exists in the first place.
Wen : Can you speak about this: what does it feel like for you when you’re performing with a guy who knows your songs inside out, versus a guy who if given a chart to read would play all the parts correctly but doesn’t actually know the songs?
Charlie : As in, someone who's a great sessionist/sight-reader but hasn't heard the music before and was just given a chart?
Wen : Yup exactly.
Charlie : Most of the time it's pretty horrible, but only because you can only get so much information from a lead sheet or score. And if it were the case I'd rather just pick something that's a bit more open for the musician to do whatever he or she wanted provided they're listening to the band, than to try and get them to strictly follow something that's so specific but is already going to be a pale approximation of the original arrangement's intent.
Wen : Ok...so that’s the negative example. It seems to me that in music education but especially in drum education teachers and schools generally try to tell you that the score, the lead sheet or the exercise is all there is to it. It’s really bad in drum education - I mean I actually know kids who spend more time practicing out of drum books that even listening to/checking out music.
So as a positive example - what are you actually hearing from the drums when it’s obvious to you on stage or during rehearsal that someone has really learnt your music? I guess this is also another way of asking you what is the magic that you hear from the drums played right in the context of your music that you can’t put on a score.
Charlie : It's that gestalt effect thing where the sum becomes more than its parts. I guess it’s all about nuance, which means having good communication of intent and having a clear understanding of what you're trying to achieve. There always needs to be some kind of emotional connection with the music. And I suppose that begins with having a good idea of what the song means to you. So learning the melody, lyrics and dynamics of the song, picking up little details in the production if it's a finished studio recording, asking the artist or arranger what their intent was when it was written, etc. Whatever it takes for you to "get it". Then you can apply whatever musical vocabulary you have to try and serve the live performance in order to achieve that same feeling. And when everyone in the band is on the same page, that feeling compounds and transcends.
You kinda had to be there to understand the meaning of this photo, but suffice to say this was a night that proved that Charlie had the ability to unite a whole generation of people in a scene who were interested in music
Wen : Could you name some records you think all drummers who want to get the gig with you should listen to, and why?
Charlie : Probably records featuring Steve Jordan and Questlove, because they play the role of producer as much as the drummer. It's all about prioritising the song...I think what got them to where they are today is their ability to thoroughly interpret and execute what the artist's vision is, while bringing what they know to the table. Brian Blade's another one, though I haven't checked out everything that he's played on. Obviously everybody loves Chris Dave for the hip-hop/Dilla-jazz revival stuff haha...but you'd be surprised who he's toured with as well. The last time I saw him live he was playing for Angus and Julia Stone and it sounded great. I think it's really hard to master playing simple stuff well, where every note has meaning and nothing is overplayed or wasted.
Wen : You’re really into sound and tone...how much does a drummer’s tone affect your ability to do what you do live?
Charlie : If it's not a recording situation, I don't really dictate the actual sound and tone of the drums much. There are just too many variables involved and what ends up in the front of house is usually quite different from what we hear on stage. The live situation is usually more about troubleshooting any problems and getting by with whatever tools are at hand, because we only have so much time to setup before the show. It's not about trying to recreate the sound of the recording, because every song on the album is going to be different and I have to just trust the drummer to approximate the same feeling of each song with whatever gear is available...I think learning to play to the sound of the room, which also includes the crowd, is probably more important than worrying about whether you have the right cymbal or snare drum.
Wen : Is there any specific drum gear you’re personally into though?
Charlie : Haha I love the BFSD stuff. I think I generally like crustier-sounding things...darker cymbals, deeper snares, wooden hoops...definitely prefer coated skins to clear, even for live shows. (And) your wallet on the snare drum...you need to patent that shit, keeping those receipts really pays off 💸
Wen : Haha. Er...ok funny. But what does it do to the sound of the snare that you like so much? From you perspective?
Charlie : It's all about the dampening I guess, it's almost like an attenuator on a high powered guitar amp...so you can crank the gain but the master volume is limited. And if you crack the snare as hard and as consistent as Soh Wen Ming, the tone is like *does Italian hand-kissing gesture because the emoji is not out yet*.
Wen : Velocity is really, really important if you’re trying to juice the mothership. I really can’t stand it if the snare doesn’t sound like it’s moving the whole band along while the kick is holding everyone down.
(In response to Charlie stating he likes more vintage sounding gear) This is pretty interesting - even when we started playing together I remember always trying to borrow more “pop” sounding stuff from my students whenever we had a gig...even was looking for clear skins etc.
Charlie : I don't get why people don't experiment more with kits. Probably because we worship our idols too much and try to copy what their setups are like, as if there's a right and wrong way of doing things.
Wen : You would think especially in a live setting playing festivals you’d need everything to just keep cutting but the more I reverted to what I actually use in a jazz setting the more everyone seemed to be happy.
Charlie : Yeah I personally love smaller kits, especially when recording. I think drums are just the most fun to come up with whacky shit and you can get away with using a lot of homemade stuff, because so many things can act as percussion. Should do this next gig...
This was Charlie's Recommendation for the next gig ...
Wen : I don’t know if you’ve ever read any drum nerd magazines or worked through any of the method books but...to be honest I don’t think anything in those books could prepare someone to be able to get a gig with you. You’ve got a really great connection to music and I don’t think you did it in a really orthodox , music book way. While the instruments are different I think drummers could really benefit from understanding your process - how you came to music as a kid, how did you learn to build some kind of aural connection to theoretical concepts, did you learn to play songs, did you work out of theory books, etc?
Charlie : Aiya thanks, but then again it's not like what I do is super left-field either...
Wen : It’s not really about left-field I think...but I think being connected to what you’re actually putting out sonically into the world is more and more the only thing I look for when working with musos these days. It’s almost blatantly obvious to me at this point when someone is mechanically/theoretically executing but without actually hearing in a deep way what’s going in...and the more time I spend talking to people who have that thing I love, the more I realise they actually never learnt music the way schools teach it. School is like at best the thing that finally gives them the tools to know what a noun or a verb is, but has nothing to do with how they actually learnt to speak a language authentically.
Charlie : It's weird. This audio engineering/production course I'm doing now has made me realise I've actually already internalised a lot of the concepts they're teaching because I've been practising most of them all this time, but I've never been able to properly articulate what they are using the proper terminology. I guess codifying all this stuff is more of a way to communicate with each other, but you're right, it's got very little to do with "getting it" and using it in daily practice.
I remember hating reading music as a kid and much preferred figuring stuff out by ear. So pretty much what came out of a severe lack of discipline was me sitting at the piano obsessing over tunes and riffs, some I'd try to recall from what I hear on the radio, some I'd be making up that just felt good to play. I grew up playing in the church band, so learning how to play with people was something ingrained in me from young. I played a lot to records that I loved as well, kind of pretending that I was part of that ensemble or like a sideman in that band. Not just transcribing - I'll try to add stuff on top of what was already there, and hear spaces in the music that I thought I could fill in. It probably sounded terrible haha...but that taught me more about playing tastefully and learning to listen to others than whatever music education I've had.
I think when it comes to theory or practising and stuff, I would only want to know how to do something just so that I can execute whatever I really wanted to play at the time. If I couldn't see it being applicable, I'd shut it out. Or like, if there was a whole book of exercises, I'd get caught up with just one of them and start fiddling around with it, trying to make different combinations and patterns with it that I like, rather than finish the whole book. Which is not the best thing either, because sometimes it's good to learn for the sake of learning, and we know nothing's ever really wasted. There's plenty of holes in my knowledge that I always feel insecure about. I'm pretty sure if I paid more attention when I was at music school and applied myself I'd be putting out better stuff now, or at least have more tools to get me out of bad situations whenever I'm stuck in a rut...
Wen : It’s very dangerous to buy into the dogma that reading is discipline and figuring stuff out by ear is not. At least for me - giving someone notation to learn music seems more like a quick way for a teacher to get something that SEEMS like results but actually isn’t. Can you actually imagine being able to do what you do today if in your childhood you had a teacher who could provide you with the sheet music for anything you heard?
Charlie : Haha I think even if my teacher did, I'd still find a way to make it my own...whether out of boredom or laziness or lack of satisfaction with what's given.
Wen : Right! Ok...so that’s what I mean. That’s real drive, and real discipline even though people try to tell you it’s rebellion or a lack of focus. What’s your process of “make it your own” or what does that even mean to you?
Charlie : I suppose it's more of how your entire being resonates with that thing when you're playing it, even when you're learning to play it. I'm just an obsessive person when I latch onto something, and when something consumes me I just kind of internalise it so that it sounds "natural" to me. I guess learning the concept behind why you like something is probably the best way of making something your own, rather than only practising cool licks or transcribing something for the sake of being able to shred it, but can't apply that in any other context.
Wen : If somebody wanted to get the gig on drums with The Mothership, and you could give him 5 bullet points, what would they be?
Epitomising take your work, but not yourself, seriously.
Charlie : Haha actually I'm really interested in what you have to say here.
Wen : Haha really?
Charlie : Yeah definitely...I’m really spoilt because I have all these amazing people who seem to want to work with me for some reason AND somehow we’ve managed to make it work for so long, so I’ve always wondered what it’s like from the musician’s perspective.
Wen : Uh ok lemme think...
I think the first is you really have to be sincerely invested in the music. Regardless of instruments I’d say the band sounds the way it does because firstly of the material and direction and then the players all have to kinda believe that this music deserves to exist at the highest level and buy into the idea that the songs mixed with the right group of people gives the individuals a chance to be part of something bigger than the sum of its parts.
Secondly, I think having experience playing a lot of styles of music and being in different situations really before coming into this gig really helps. In Asia it seems like most jazz oriented (or rather improvisationally minded) guys don’t end up playing in the big Taiwan/Chinese market circuit. In those situations the drum seat really is the hot seat and every note is a high stakes situation. With the way music is these days , with backing tracks and everything going on, I think the drummer is actually one of the few instruments left where if you miss something there’s a good chance quite a few people will notice. I think being exposed to those situations early in my life prepared me for the work that was required. Obviously it’s not like I’ve played your music without making mistakes ever, but I think just the understanding that executing parts correctly, no matter how simple, is a really tough job and requires lots of work before I met you prepared me to be ready to put in the work I knew was required.
On the flipside - while I have a lot of respect for all the musicians who are playing in the upper echelon of the Asian pop scene - it may be just my taste but a lot of the time the results are extremely accurate, but can leave me feeling a little cold. I think it’s cause a lot of these musicians come up with much less of an African American influence in their musical upbringing - if you trace their history they’re usually much more into fusion or something like that, where execution of complicated parts extremely accurately is paramount, and probably is more important than the feeling of the music. I don’t think you really need to be an improvising drummer to play in your band but you REALLY need to have had experience in dealing with time and rhythm from a jazz/straightahead perspective to understand how playing a big beat and playing to a metronome are related, but completely different things.
The problem is that historically most guys who play that kind of music a lot never develop the discipline to just nail parts because in that kind of music “being killing” is more important that just being correct But I think your music really needs you to have both - you need to be disciplined and really know the music but also have an approach where playing the music GOOD is sometimes more important than playing the music correct and bring your whole background with you to discern when to be able to take situational risk.
Thirdly, I guess this is related to number two but slightly different. I think to really do what the drummer needs to be able to do well in your band I think it’s just important to bring a personality to the band and the music that you’d do whatever it takes to make firstly the Artist and secondly the band safe. Obviously, the drummer isn’t the MD but I would say the MD requires the drummer more than anyone to make sure the ship stays on the course it’s supposed to be on, so that when you’re in front being the frontman you don’t have to worry about it and you can just perform.
Fourth - I think if you’re going to play drums in this band, you need to be generally a cool guy, but also know that every once in a while it’s your job to be a dick and just boss everyone around. It comes with the territory.
Lastly - I think it’s really important to be open. Like I’m a music tech idiot (as you know) but I’m genuinely interested in all kinds of music, from straightahead, to the Foo Fighters, to Porter Robinson to DJs and producers to whatever and that really helps not just from a knowledge standpoint but also to understand that all approaches in music that have elements in truth in them have value. That helps me be genuinely interested in what you’re doing musically regardless of where you’re drawing from because I know as long as it’s going through the filter of you, if I invest in it I’m going to find value in it.
OK that's my five, you go.
Charlie : I really don't think I've got much to add...you've elaborated on those points really well too. Though are we only referring to “peak” Mothership here? Like the way it’s been since Kerong joined and we had Mark John around. You’ve been playing with me when I first moved back in 2012, and I’m sure you can trace the trajectory of how we’ve grown since then. Would you say the principles are still the same from when you first joined, even when we didn’t sound as polished?
Wen : Yeah I mean...I think all the members in the band grew, as they should, but if I look at it everyone just grew into a bigger, better more matured version of themselves. the core was always there.
Charlie : I could add on to your earlier point about being open. What you said about understanding that all approaches in music that have elements in truth in them have value; it’s true.
I suppose the more you do something, the better and more discerning you should be at it. But people tend to conflate experience with elitism or snobbishness for some reason. Experience should help us avoid making the same mistakes, but it shouldn’t blindside us from trying new things, or giving a different perspective an equal chance. The more you know, the more you should realise how much you don’t, and how much there is to learn even if that stuff doesn't sit with your worldview.
Thankfully I think that’s why everyone in this band can get along. The priority is always about getting the shit to sound as good as possible, even if it means going through as many permutations of options and entertaining any strange ideas…even if it might seem really kok or stupid to you at first. And if it doesn’t work, we just move on to the next thing. You can’t take stuff personally.
When it comes to playing together, I also like what you said before about “buying into the idea”…it’s really about collective belief. But someone has to have to get the ball rolling. Do you remember me bringing in Super Rich Kids and it sounded like the dumbest thing at first? 😬
Betcha don't think it sounds dumb now!
Wen : Right. So that's what I mean...it's not just about the band. It's actually FIRST the material and then the vision, and then people who come together to work on that. I've been in situations where people have hired your band before trying to get the same sound and I've had to flat out say "look, you gotta understand that the magic of that sound isn't in this band".
Sessionists run around their whole life trying to find something that has meaning just to them as. individuals, but then when you run into a songwriter/bandleader that can come up with material and a vision that has meaning to a COLLECTIVE of people that's really huge. I know I've said it to you before but I don't know if you know how serious I was when I said it.
With what little experience I've had in leading bands and even just trying to write tunes and present them to people I respect to try to play them, I know it's hard (well, at least for me). It's a very different kind of vulnerability and then having to direct other people to YOUR vision...it's draining. People don't realise how huge of a difference leading is from playing. I guess that's kinda why I feel like by the time we get on stage, I need to be able to say to myself I've done everything I can to make sure the person in front doesn't have to worry about a thing, cause it's already tough enough being in front.
Charlie : It’s definitely stressful, especially when you have to do both; as in playing and fronting the band at the same time. you can’t focus on the latter and put on a good show if you’re constantly stressing out whether someone’s gonna nail a part. Having musicians who are always switched on and have done the homework is essential...there’s no autopilot when the parts are so intricate, sometimes counter-intuitive. But that’s what makes the music interesting, to me at least. There’s also the flipside when I fuck up as well, and then how does the band react and try to save the situation 😂
Wen : Haha...the same way you would for us I guess. Just keep on trucking with the best of intentions. That should just about wrap it up I think but before we end this - do you have any last words of wisdom for any of the drummers out there who want the gig?
Kerong - Charlie's Genius Level MD absolutely smashing it
Charlie : I think having you and Kerong in the band who can not only play the shit out of your instruments and know so much about music in general, but are still so open to trying new things with musicians who aren't as skilled, articulate or experienced really set the bar in terms of being open and stoic about everything...
And over time I think the dynamics within this crew have worked out quite well, in terms of setting up an environment where people take a lot of pride in their work but also have some space to mess around and try slightly more unorthodox things.
I'll try to sum it up here...I'm not sure if this applies so much as to prerequisites for joining the band specifically, I think this conversation has turned into more about how to get through life as a musician without completely losing your soul haha:
- You have to actually like the music and the people playing it for this to work out
- Be obsessive about execution, internalise and make things your own, do your homework before rehearsals
- Understand context, don’t just learn your part in isolation but listen to original references/the whole album/ask the writer or arranger what the intention is
- Open-mindedness/patience/humility when interacting with musicians who might not have your same education/worldview/experience, there's always something to learn if we can take the time
- Don't forget about the big picture...ego will be irrelevant when you're serving something bigger than yourself; it's about having something to say and not something to prove
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