The absolute number 1 best way for a drummer to improve is to get into situations where he gets to interact with great musicians who DON"T play drums. In my life i've been very blessed to get to play with all kinds of great musicians in different genres of music and if I were to be honest I've learnt much more in the rehearsal room and the bandstand than I ever did from practicing by myself in the practice room.
Drummers are by nature accompanists, which means 99% of everything we do involves playing with other people, fitting into their ensembles, and trying our best to make the situation we're in better than if we weren't in the ensemble. We do our job best when everyone else sounds great. It's the interaction with other musicians that gives us the feedback we need so we know what we need to work on in a practical musical sense, that we take back to the practice room to work on in our own time.
The hard part is this, how do you get that break? How do you get the opportunity to interact with greatness in a professional setting so you can GET that feedback? Many drummers find themselves in the neverending loop of practicing, but not getting the required feedback, and then going back and practicing but without direction and input from non drummers (who are the people they should be looking to get hired by to begin with)
That works if you want to be ONLY a youtube drumstar or a drum clinician that teaches technique and plays to playalong tracks. Please note, i'm not knocking that at all, it's a lot of work to be successful at that too! It's just that in my case I always wanted to be playing music with other people in bands performing for people who didn't know about drums at all - so I always thought about things and measured success that way. When I wasn't good enough to get the gigs I wanted yet, I was always that annoying kid who was willing to suck at jam sessions to play with older guys so I WOULD get yelled at. I'd take those nuggets of wisdom (more often than not communicated in a very unpolitically correct way) and try to figure out what they meant and come back again and try again. Bit by bit, I started to gain respect and acceptance by my elders and they started actually hiring me, instead of just bearing with me on the bandstand.
The thing about going to a drum lesson is that you're always learning something in isolation, and the person who's teaching you is teaching you from the perspective of being a drummer. That's really really important too, but it's only half of the picture. So I figured one of the best ways I could add value is to pick the brains of my amazing friends and colleagues who don't play the drums, about why they would hire me, or anyone else to sit in the drumseat in their projects.
For the first interview, I couldn't think of anyone better than my best friend, Chok Kerong. To the general non-musician public he may not be a MEGASTAR (although he's gaining notoriety day by day) but he's played, written and been a musical director for the some of the biggest names in music today and his ability to understand music transcends all kinds of genres and instruments. Truly, I've actually learnt more about how to play my instrument from interacting with him and his encyclopedic knowledge of all kinds of drummers, and what he brings to the table always is astounding. I remember when we were kids and trying to learn how to play jazz, I had transcribed some Elvin Jones Lick and thought I was hot shit. I started to describe to him on IRC (hey guys are you old enough to know what IRC is??) what i had learnt, six stroke roll group in 16th notes etc etc and he actually knew which album and track I had ripped it off from.
I've actually had a ton of students who i've kicked out of my teaching practice, and sent them to him for finishing school. And I don't know a single drummer who hasn't benefitted from either working from him, or studying with him. So I grabbed him on whatsapp and asked if he'd be cool enough to answer some questions and here are the very wise answers.
Interview Begin
Wen : So wanna be on my blog
Kerong : Hahah what do you need me to do
Wen: Oh I was going to do a series of posts called “get the gig” Where I basically interview people I play with and ask them why they hire me, or whoever else drummer they hire but talk through WhatsApp instead of sending email questions so it’s more of a conversation instead of a one shot transcription then I’ll retype everything
Kerong : Sure, could be interesting, lift the veil a bit
Wen : Ok, so question one - you work in a lot of settings, from being MD in pop bands to running jazz trios to writing and producing your own large ensemble. What are you looking for from someone to fill the drumseat?
Kerong :I always look for drummers who I can trust to take care of business. At a very basic level, it means they’ll check out the music beforehand, whether it’s a chart or demo and be reliable when it comes to rehearsals and concerts. Beyond that, it really helps if they are flexible with changes on the spot and are able to internalise new information quickly.
Wen: Ok so we’re talking about responsibility and being able to take criticism. How important do you think an aesthetic sense is and what does that even mean to you in all those different settings?
Kerong : Well, I was going to add that the drummer drives the whole band in most situations, so whoever is on the drum chair needs to have the big picture in mind.This means listening very deeply and constantly looking out for what the music needs as a whole - and of course this requires a deep understanding of form, harmony and melody.All that should also be combined with an awareness of the spirit of the song. That way, when they put their own spin on the drum part, the music can really come alive.
Wen : I think sometimes guys who play drums just really don’t realise how important it is to know the songs. Whether it’s jazz standard or pop repertoire or whatever. Can you immediately tell the difference between those who’ve done that homework and those who haven’t?
Kerong : Generally yes, it’s quite obvious. Drummers who really know the song and are connected with it will interact with the form/melody in a meaningful way. It’ll show in the way they set up and anticipate key phrases, or in the way they strategically choose not to interact. I mean depending on the gig, sometimes the script has to be followed, but I always appreciate drummers who are able to go beyond what’s written without getting in the way of the song. You can only do that if you understand the song.
Wen : So apart from knowing the actual material, what prep work do you think goes into actually learning the basis that the material is based on?
Kerong : Are you talking about “long game” stuff ?
Wen : Mmm more like ok. You could have a guy who knows the melodies and harmonies and gets all the hits and plays in time but still sounds like ass. How should a drummer avoid that tragedy? Being correct but being stylistically wrong.
Kerong : Well, I think it really helps to be as objective as possible. That means recording yourself and going “ok, this part wasn’t so great...I should have done this here... this section really needs XYZ”. But also getting to the point where you go “ok, I don’t know what to do here, it needs something but I don’t know what”. That’s when it gets interesting , because your peers or maybe more experienced colleagues can suggest some listening examples. So maybe the answer for that particular question can be found in Blade, Elvin, Steve Jordan, Sam Woodyard...whoever. In this way you increase your musical vocabulary. And it’s always tied to some sort of context as well as some sort of personality.
Wen : Right ok. You’re right here’s where it gets interesting. So a lot of guys when they want to learn a style of music, go buy a “style xyz” book and this is more prevalent in drum education than in any other instrument. Why do you think this is so - and what would the potential pitfalls be of learning this way if someone’s goal was to get the gig with you?
Kerong : As to why it’s prevalent in drum education, I can only guess. Books in general provide information, which isn’t bad in itself. The problem lies in using books as a substitute for the experience of listening to the forerunners of whatever style you’re checking out. Learning by listening provides no fast track to mastery, whereas a book can get you playing the notes in the right sequence in a relatively short amount of time. Of course, it’s only natural to want to sound decent as quickly as possible. But if you’re trying to develop an aesthetic within a certain world of music, you can’t take instruction without processing it yourself. That means questioning what you read, what you are taught. But to do that meaningfully, you gotta do the research. n the end, what does the music say? What did they play? Not “what did the book say”. I mean there are so many rules that are perpetuated within music“ You cannot do this” or “to play this style you must do this” But to understand why those rules are there, you have to listen to the music. The best part is, at some point you’re gonna find an artist that you love, breaking those rules.
So, by learning just through the books, you’re gonna have a very low-res picture of whatever you’re trying to learn. Quite often, I need whoever’s playing drums to be able to express very specific things that can’t be learnt that way. Many times in rehearsal, I might intentionally direct the band using nebulous language, because I don’t need a specific phrase or lick, I need a feeling. But to have that vocabulary to express that feeling without spoiling the groove or detracting from the song? You can’t learn that from a book.
You gotta know your instrument so well, and you gotta know so much music that you can put it together quickly in your head and translate it to the kit Nebulous and specific at the same time. Nebulous because sometimes language is insufficient to describe the feeling we’re after, but specific because the drummer needs to know how to express it through his instrument.
Wen : One thing I say to my students is "as a teacher, by the time I use the english language to express something about music to you, I'm only telling you half of the truth". And you're hitting the nail on the head describing it this way because I find often in music if I actually have to spell out in English what it is that I need from someone, it's basically never going to happen. That being said though, let's get a little into some specifics. In a jazz context - what do you actually hear and feel when a drummer in your band is playing the ride cymbal the way that you like?
Kerong : I think the first thing I hear (or miss if it’s not there) is the groove. For me, it should be dance-y, assuming we’re talking about 4/4 straightahead. That encompasses a few things though.
Wen : let's dig into this. what do you think the elements are that make up groove. just in a ride cymbal
Kerong : Consistency. Consistency in sound, space between the notes. I remember you used to talk about this with me a bit, because I was trying to understand how a drummer could play all the “right “ notes at the “right time” and still not swing.
Wen : Yeah it's something i've spent years thinking about too. but i think i've come to the conclusion that if drummers realize all the music actually happens AFTER the point of impact, it would answer a lot of questions.
Kerong : Can you talk about that a bit ?
Wen : Like, we play the one instrument in a jazz ensemble where after the point of impact we have no physical control over the sustain of our instrument ... unless we want to choke the sound and stop the note. so imagination is really important because we have to actually figure all of that out BEFORE we hit the drum cause once we hit it it's done. If i hit a ride cymbal and i didn't hit it hard enough to get the quarter note to last a quarter note, there's literally nothing i can do. But if you play like saxophone, as long as you're breathing into the horn, the note will sustain.
Kerong : Right, there’s real time control
Wen : yeah but in drums it doesn't work that way. so we naturally start to think of music in dots because we think that's all we can control but the reality is that we gotta figure out how to make the dots land where they're supposed to, and also make all the music and sustain and timbre happen by sheer virtue of how we hit the dot in the first place. and that takes i guess, a lot of internal hearing before you get there.
Kerong : I think while there should be consistency, there’s also the other side of it where it shouldn’t feel stubborn, so to speak
Wen : right. now speak about that, cause that's deep
Kerong : I’m not sure I’m qualified to explain that part
Wen : haha. well try. just from personal experience
Kerong : The best drummers make the beat feel like anything I play will sit. It can feel like there’s lots of forward motion, yet relaxed at the same time.
Wen : iI think a lot of drummers think of time in terms of metronomic accuracy, and that's important. but what you seem to be saying is that the best drummers allow you to play anywhere in the time feel that you want and everything will be fine ... and i think a lot of guys don't really conceptually understand what that means, or feels like physically in the moment of playing. I know you teach drummers too, so how do you teach them to be able to understand the concept that not everything in music has to line up like a grid? and how to keep their place in the midst of all that going o?
Kerong : I’m not sure if I’ve shared this with all my students, but I’ll always remember something that John Riley told me when I was studying with him, he said that your time has to be inviting. I’ve found that this description encompasses the qualities that I like in a beat - it’s confident and solid, and it’s so seductive that people find it impossible not to follow. If a drummer can create that sort of environment, everything will feel right, even if it doesn’t line up objectively. The question is what exactly “feels right”? That’s something we all have to figure out for ourselves. If you don’t experience that through your own process, it won’t have the same meaning. So, if your idea of a groove that feels right is say Billy Higgins with Dexter Gordon on “Heartaches”, then you’ll keep editing your playing until you’re able to channel that feeling without playing the exact notes, or tempo. Along the way you’ll start to accumulate other examples of grooves that feel right to you while trying to understand this one groove in a deep way. At the end of it, you would have made more connections between you and your instrument. In a way, you’re mapping your vocabulary on the kit to your expressive palette. After doing this for a while with different drummers, it’ll stop sounding like an imitation, and start to sound like you.
The other description I like is “round”. I think that’s the word that Andrew uses to describe a good time feel (Note : Andrew Lim is the guitarist in Kerong's Organ Trio). It’s kind of a nice way of describing a groove that’s really swinging. The transition from beat to beat should feel seamless. Kind of like a skilled driver navigating speed bumps.
Wen : So far we’ve been talking a lot about placement but how much do you think tone figures into a time feel, and what are you looking out for in tone?
Kerong : Tone is a huge factor in determining the overall time feel. I find this to be true across instruments. When I’m not mindful about my own sound on piano and just carelessly digging in, I may be placing the notes at the “correct” place, but the time feel might end up sounding too narrow. That’s the best way I can describe it.
I think the same applies to drums based on my experience. If you have a strong conception of what your tone/sound should be across all dynamic levels, it will contribute a lot to the creation of a good time feel. There’s no one solution to this, but we should strive to make our tone intentional at all times. This also means that we should be hearing a specific sound before playing any note. When the drummer’s tone is informed by a solid conception of what it should be in any given context (and of course this is tied to deep listening etc), it will positively affect the overall time feel. When I hear that kind of intention and purpose in someone’s sound, it usually makes the whole band feel more comfortable straightaway.
Wen : Ok. Now in a Pop/rock setting. How does the game change? and what are you looking for in the always essential kick snare hat combination?
Kerong : I think the philosophy remains the same essentially. Everything we talked about applies regardless of whatever musical world you’re operating in. Maybe the focus changes, like in this case, where it’s more about the kick snare and hihat. There still needs to be that awareness of context. I’ve found it useful to always think of the personalities more than a genre in the abstract, so it doesn’t get reduced to some generic pattern. Just like playing straightahead can’t be reduced to “ding ding diding”, playing backbeat oriented music shouldn’t be reduced to a formula. I’m always looking for that kind of attitude in the drums. Stevie Wonder playing on Superstition or Jeff Porcaro playing Human Nature...there’s a specific quality to these classic recordings. I always look for that kind of attention to detail in the drummer’s playing. Every subtle shade in dynamics, ghost notes, the different timbres within each part of the kit, they all affect the groove. On the technical side, it helps to be able make subtle adjustments to the groove, such as placing the snare slightly behind the eighths in the hihat etc. This requires a high level of consistency, otherwise the groove will not sit. I know you’ve thought about this a lot. In fact, maybe you could talk about that for a bit.
Wen : Regarding consistency, I think I find that whenever i play in a pop setting, it take a real shift in thought process. the first thing more than anything is consistency of tone. It really doesn't matter how much I can nail a metronome if the dynamic levels of the kick snare hat are always changing. The number one thing any frontman wants is predictability and consistency. I believe that's also the thing the audience needs in that setting, If they need a second to try to figure out what the drummer is doing then the drummer's already lost the plot.
In many cases in a pop/rock setting, we're also playing to larger audiences and on larger stages, so I think it becomes doubly important to understand that the people in the back of the room deserve as great a performance as the people sitting right in front. And while microphones do help to amplify a drum sound, i've found that a main reason people like working with me in those settings is that i make a real effort to hit the drums in such a way that it's really frigging loud, but it doesn't sound harsh. You know this, many times in rehearsal we're dealing with dynamic levels, and trying to play nice, and all that, but by the time we hit the stage with, say, Charlie, the absolute right thing to do is to go in, and smash it, but also hit the drum in such a way that the tone of the drum doesn't break.
As far as consistency of time goes, i think anything that has an african american origin in terms of rhythmic origin, always has parts of the drumset that are lined up a microsecond ahead or behind of of where the metronome would place it. Being able to make all the 16th notes line up EXACTLY with the metronome is a skill, but so is understanding that sometimes the backbeat needs to be a little bit off the metronome while everything else is still locking up with the metronome. That and when we go for fills, we need to make the fills line up with the pocket we've set up for the rest of the song, so if we're playing a beat and the backbeat is laid back, the 2 and 4 of the fill also has to be equally laid back. And then also the tone of the fills, the volume, it all be consistent with what was already being set up while the drummer was playing the beat. And people don't realize that's a hard thing to do, to play all night at triple fortissimo, hit in a way where its loud and there's a ton of energy but the sound isn't harsh, be consistent in terms of note placement, give each note it's full note value, not miss cues, and above and beyond all that play in such a way that even though the drummer isn't the MD he needs to be able to play in such a way that he IS leading the band in his own way.
Ok back to you : It's interesting that you refer to personalities, but actually I guess i do the same thing cause I have a rolodex of influences that I call upon given different situations. So if someone wanted to play with you in a jazz trio, who would be the 5 basic personalities you would need them to check out and what about those personalities make them so special. Same question for any pop/rock groups that you're MD'ing.
Kerong : This is really valuable - the idea that we need to coax a big sound out of our instruments, which is different from simply hitting hard.
Having fills that are within the same pocket is so important , otherwise they tend to sound like non sequiturs.
As far as the personalities go, if it’s for primarily swinging music, I would recommend the following:
Roy Haynes - for his buoyant beat and flexible phrasing. Snap crackle pop... all the different sounds he produces on the kit.
Philly Joe Jones - he contributed vocabulary to the drumset that is considered foundational today.
Billy Higgins - for the amount of space that his beat gives to the melody and soloist. For some reason when he’s on the drums, the soloist’s ideas tend to be extraordinarily clear. There’s some magic going on here.
Art Blakey - for the way he sets up figures in the melodies, as well as his creative use of the pedalled hihat. I’m thinking specifically of some of the early Horace Silver trio recordings.
Kenny Clarke - plenty to check out of course, but I would highlight his immaculate brushwork with Hank Jones
For backbeat oriented music, these drummers have played on tracks that are a big part of my own musical consciousness:
Al Jackson Jr. - he says so much with his grooves that he doesn’t need to fill that much. Sometimes there is barely any hihat. Lots of great stuff with Albert King, Al Green and The Spinners.
JR Robinson - his work on “Off The Wall” is classic of course. One of my favourite moments is him not crashing on beat
1 of the choruses of Rock With You”. The crash on beat 1 only happens after the interlude, which really makes it count.
Greg Ericco - the music he made with Sly and the Family Stone has such an attitude. I love how his hi-hat sounds - it feels so alive.
Buddy Miles - his playing with Hendrix had a real bounce to it.
Vinnie Colaiuta - the hihat things he was doing on “Seven Days”(Sting) really shows us how we can nudge the music forward through subtle changes in the way we phrase.
Wen : This is great - I think this is a great place to wrap it up. To wrap it up, for anything else that hasn’t been said above, what does a drummer need to do if he wants to get the gig with Kerong?
Kerong : It really makes a difference when a drummer plays the part on the actual gig in a way that sounds like he or she came up with the whole part independently, even though during rehearsal there might be some back and forth. It’s related to what you said about the drummer leading the band. I think everything we discussed is related to that end goal. If I feel that happening during a gig, I would call that drummer again.